Obama and the Misogynists

The genie has been out of the box for some time now, and it's not just here on MyDD, but among my female friends (many of them American), even from my Polish girlfriend, that they declare their support for Hillary because she is a woman and the first in  American history with a realistic shot for the presidency.

I accept all that. I also accept Hillary is a very talented and tenacious politician. But what I can't accept any longer is the accusation of misogyny that I (and others) regularly receive when we criticise Hillary's campaign tactics or statements. Hillary supporters would probably counter that they get accused of racism if they attack Obama. Well, that is just as wrong-headed, and two wrongs don't make a right. If we are going to heal the divisions the primary has created, we have to get beyond this racism versus sexism stalemate.

The 'is racism or sexism the more pernicious' comes up regularly, especially since Obama's speech on race. I have my own opinions on it, and would generally agree that the history of race in the US - Native American genocide (by English settlers), slavery (led by British trade), civil war, segregation and Civil rights - would make racism America's "original sin" as Obama expressed it. But that's just an opinion, and I'm also swayed by feminists who say that women were the first slaves, and remain subjugated across the world. The point is moot, and it will take historians and philosophers to untangle the claims of victimhood in this clash of identity politics. For me, deciding whether racism or sexism is the greatest evil is like trying work out whether Hitler or Stalin is the biggest monster.

But now these ghosts and demons have been upbraided on the campaign trail. There's no point saying who started it, though I think Gloria Steinem hardly helped matters:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/opinio n/08steinem.html

But now along comes Alice Walker and asks us to look beyond the blinkers of identity politics. Please read her essay.

http://www.theroot.com/id/45469

Whether Obama or Hillary win, we should get beyond the name calling, the sense of injustice and treachery. It's a tragedy that two such power potential nominees came along at the same time. But it's also a tribute - at least from my side of the pond - to the nascent power and talent of Democratic politics in the US.

I've started playing a game in my head, listing the attributes of the two candidates X and Y, without reference to their gender or (mixed) race. Imagine some strange virus had removed all Y chromosomes and melanin from society your memory of these things. It's an interesting exercise, and I recommend it, at least for taking some of the poison of out the identity politics furore.

Sexism, like race, still needs to be talked through. These taboo subjects have festered on the sidelines of this primary, and the more we talk about them - argue about them - and begin to see each other's point of the view, the more chance there is for democrats to win the next election, and your whole country begin to heal and be more a force for good, both inside the US, and across the world.

I'll end with the words of someone much more qualified than me, Alice Walker, who explains how despite her years of working alongside Gloria Steinem, and fighting sexism wherever she sees it, she's voting for Obama.(my emphasis below)

"I am a supporter of Obama because I believe he is the right person to lead the country at this time. He offers a rare opportunity for the country and the world to start over, and to do better.   It is a deep sadness to me that many of my feminist white women friends cannot see him. Cannot see what he carries in his being.  Cannot hear the fresh choices toward Movement he offers. That they can believe that millions of Americans -black,  white, yellow, red and brown - choose Obama over Clinton only because he is a man, and black, feels tragic to me.

When I have supported white people, men and women, it was because I thought them the best possible people to do whatever the job required.  Nothing else would have occurred to me. If Obama were in any sense mediocre, he would be forgotten by now. He is, in fact, a remarkable human being, not perfect but humanly stunning, like King was and like Mandela is. We look at him, as we looked at them, and are glad to be of our species. He is the change America has been trying desperately and for centuries to hide, ignore, kill. The change America must have if we are to convince the rest of the world that we care about people other than our (white) selves."


Poll
Is sexism or racism the bigger evil in US society
Sexism is the bigger evil
Racism is the bigger evil
Both are equally as bad
My fight is with sexism regardless
My fight is with racism regardless
Other issues dominate my mind
Both can be addressed by both current candidates
Identity politics has set this country back years
We've talked about both two much
I have no idea what you're talking about

Votes: 12
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Thank you for this.eom (2.00 / 1)


by Mystylplx on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:34:35 PM EST

Re: The Misogyny Myth? (none / 0)

Sorry to doubt your sincerity about wanting "to talk about" sexism, given the title of your diary.  


On to the Convention Floor!
by oh puhleeze on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:40:11 PM EST

Re: The Misogyny Myth? (2.00 / 1)

Notice the question mark. I absolutely want to talk about it. Or rather others to talk about it. I talk to my friends about it all the time. It seems to be a source of a lot of friction, and worth airing.

Please go ahead and disagree with me all you want.

But don't doubt my good faith. This is in no way a hit diary.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Misogyny Myth? (none / 0)

Sorry, maybe sincerity is the wrong word.  But for me, it's like saying "The evolution myth?"  or "The Holocaust Myth?"  That is, interjecting a kind of talk show there-are-two-sides-to -every-question point of view.  

And your personal bias on the question seems obvious, take for example "There's no point saying who started it, though I think Gloria Steinem hardly helped matters..."

To many of us out here in Obama/MSNBC land, this campaign has been a dispiriting testament to how little progress has been made, how deeply the loathing and derision for strong women is ingrained in our culture.  


On to the Convention Floor!
by oh puhleeze on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:58:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Misogyny Myth? (2.00 / 1)

I meant the myth that all Obama supporters are misogynists. As you can see in the diary, I have been accused of this, for no reason other than supporting Obama. Yes, I declare myself on the side of Alice Walker rather than Gloria Steinem. But that doesn't make me a misogynist. I will correct the diary title if you think I am really suggesting that misogyny per se is a myth. It clearly isn't, and is well and alive throughout the world, as is racism and tribalism.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Misogyny Myth? (none / 0)

Of course all Obama supporters are not misogynists. Changing the title, however, does not change my objection to your position.  Misogyny is not just alive and well throughout the world, but in this primary race, coming from Obama, his campaign, the media, and his public and private supporters.  It's the dirty little engine that turns Hillary into not just a candidate with whose views you disagree, but an evil monster.


On to the Convention Floor!
by oh puhleeze on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:58:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are never going to get it, are you? (2.00 / 1)

Yes, there are mysogenists as there are racists but they do no make up the majority of supporters for either candidate.  Neither do they make up a majority of the netroots support for either.

I know you are a staunch Hillary supporter and that's okay but when disagreeing with someone, if you have to resort to name-calling you have lost.  I assume you support her for other reasons besides her being a woman as I support Obama for other reasons besides him being a man.

That's not to say I wouldn't love to have a woman president...been waiting a long time.  But Hillary is the wrong woman at the wrong time as far as I'm concerned.  I trust Obama's judgment more than Clinton's, I agree with him on the issues such as healthcare, I am impressed with his background and experience more than hers.  That's why I support him.


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:10:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are never going to get it, are you? (none / 0)

Obama's campaign resorted to name calling first, when it accused the Clintons, without a shred of evidence, of racism.


by freemansfarm on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:12:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stop it already.. (none / 0)

With the playground he started it/she started etc.

Has Obama complained about Clinton racism? No.

Has Hillary complained about Obama's sexism? Er, well, a bit.

The whole bullying thing, together with the 'I will be the first woman president' as reasons to vote for her, dragged identity centre stage. Obama has never said 'I'll be the first black president', partly because he's desperately avoiding being seen as just a Black candidate (pace Jesse Jackson) and partially because he's mixed race.

Please, this was supposed to be serious discussion diary, and not just some tit for tat taunt.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:20:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stop it already.. NO (none / 0)

"Has Obama complained about Clinton racism? No."

He has his henchmen do it instead. Big deal.

As for the tit for tat thing, it's OK for you to accuse Hillary of playing the gender card, but it is somehow a degradation of your oh so "serious" diary to mention that Obama played the race card, and played it harder, and played it first, and played it with absolutely no evidence.


by freemansfarm on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:31:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yawn (none / 0)

Oh so HE started it first! Thanks for that edifying information.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yawn (2.00 / 1)

Go to bed if your sleepy. Obama did start it first. Whether that "edifies" you or not.


by freemansfarm on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

zzzzzzzzzz (none / 0)

oh what's that whining noise? Is there a fly in the room? Oh no. Of course. It's freemansfarm

zzzzzzzzzzz


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:02:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Other than who started it (2.00 / 0)

now that brit has said the Obama camp started it.

What is the point you are making?


Ida B. "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"--F.D.R.
by Ida B on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:37:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are never going to get it, are you? (none / 0)

Not on this thread he didn't.  


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 07:42:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thankyou (2.00 / 1)

You've stated your position, and it's clearly nothing to do with some statement about 'misogyny' in general, but specifically to do with Hillary.

My personal opinion is that you're playing the 'sexism card'. Samantha Power's called Hillary a monster, off the record, but in response to her spinning the so called Naftagate story. Is Samantha Powers also misogynistic (the female equivalent of a self hating Jew?). And is Alice Walker a misogynist now too?

For my own part, Hillary's feminist credentials are deeply undermined by her reliance on her husband's career, her exaggerations about her own experience, and more than anything, the excoriating kitchen sink tactics she uses while also claiming to be bullied.

Puh-leese. Please. She's a fighter, she's a victim. She's an independent woman. But you get Bill as well. Hillary is not the best avatar for feminism, full stop. Unfortunately, just as my own Prime Minister of eleven years, Margaret Thatcher, held many women back.

On the other hand, Obama is not the best avatar for the black community, being mixed race. Oh. But of course there are lots of Black 'racists' like Jeremiah Wright. So as a mixed race man, let's say it's all fair in love, war and primaries.

We've got to get beyond this. I'm appalled if you hear sexist comments about Hillary. I troll every comment at DailyKos that calls her a 'witch' or claims she's 'hysterical'. But from what I see, this kind of sexism is rare. I heard much more about Obama being a black racist. And I'm accused of misogyny as a matter of course


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:12:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thankyou (2.00 / 1)

You may not be a misogyinist. But misogyny is a big part of the Obama campaign, and many of his supporters, and his fawning talking heads in the media, are misogynists.


by freemansfarm on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:15:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A part of the official campaign? (2.00 / 1)

Now you've really departed from reality. Tell me what it's like out there in that alternate universe


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:26:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A part of the official campaign? (2.00 / 1)

Disagreement with you does NOT equal departure from reality. You conclusory statements mean less than nothing.


by freemansfarm on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Disagreement (2.00 / 1)

When it comes to Obama running an officially misogynist compaign, I think the word you're looking for is DELUSION


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:40:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disagreement (2.00 / 1)

"Officially" is not a word I used. Stick to replying to what I actually write, not the straw man of your invention.


by freemansfarm on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are so tedious (2.00 / 1)

You said 'misogyny is a big part of the Obama campaign'

Where are the ads? Where are the targetted anti feminist dog whistles. You're the same idiot who said Obama was running a racist campaign. And you just keep spouting this nonsense. There's actually no point arguing the toss with you. Others will read what you wrote and work it out.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:55:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Woman-hating is alive and well (2.00 / 1)

that knowledge does not oblige anyone to support HRC! I am a BLACK WOMAN who supported EDWARDS... and would have until the bitter end. That choice didn't mean I was a self-loathing anything and my current choice is not based on self-hate.


Ida B. "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics"--F.D.R.
by Ida B on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:31:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Misogyny Myth? (1.00 / 1)

"We look at him.... and are glad to be of our species."

ok now that really scares me...
really...our "species"??


by jentwisl on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:42:21 PM EST

What scares you about that? (2.00 / 1)

Obama is our species, no? You are too. As a Brit, I would be a proud to have him as a Brit. But let's not let Obama dominate the conversation. Alice Walker makes points about the substantive issue - race and sex


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What scares you about that? (none / 0)

"Obama is our species, no? You are too."

...and so are you...unless you are not human...species does not refer to nationality...

sorry but as a fellow human being I just don't get this kind of adulation:

they "Cannot see what he carries in his being."

!!!!what he carries in his being???


by jentwisl on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 03:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What scares you about that? (none / 0)

Er...

You do realise that those are Alice Walker's words?

If you have a problem with them, you're probably a misogynist.

Only kidding. I love her writing, but I can't be expected to defend every subclause


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:45:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Embarrasing, absurd, and scary (none / 0)

You not only quoted the subclause, but you highlighted it too. Why did you do so, if you don't think you can be "expected to defend" it? Everything you quoted from Walker, not just this subclause, and not just the embarassingly idolatrous business about what Obama "carries in his being," all of it, is indicative of the scary cult of personality that surrounds Obama. It also absurd and preposterous.

King? Mandela? These man risked their freedom and lives for what was right. Was has Obama risked? Nothing. King and Mandela fought for the good of everyone, not for political office (yes, Mandela was eventually elected President of South Africa, but that's not what his struggle was primarily about). Obama is a politician, not a moral leader unlike these two men.

Walker's statement is ridiculous, insulting to King and Mandela, and degrading to herself. And you quoted it approvingly. You had better be ready to "defend" it.


by freemansfarm on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:11:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Embarrasing, absurd, and scary (none / 0)

I do defend, I just wasn't sure if the previous poster understood those were Walker's words.

I could cite many of Obama's achievements, politically, in Harvard Law school, chicago activism, Illinois Senate, US Senate, the speeches he has made since 2004, three of which I believe (as do many others) will be cited for a long time to come. However, I didn't thing this was the substance of my diary.

I could also name so many others who are inspired by his speeches and his candidacy, that I would run out of bandwidth and you'd run out of patience. Not that you seem to display much.

What is your point? I can't possibly admire Obama? I do. Next question


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Embarrasing, absurd, and scary (none / 0)

Don't patronize me or the other poster, we can all see that you were quoting Walker.

You can cite all of Obama's achievements that you want, you can tell me that you admire him all you want, but don't (you, or Walker, or both) tell me that you are proud to be of the "same species" as him, don't you all talk to me about what he "carries in his being," or compare him to King or Mandela, unless you are prepared to back up these specific statements. Statements, that, it appears to me, are idolatrous, self-abasing, and indicative of a dangerous cult of personality.

And, don't twist my words around only to dismiss them with your contemptuous "next question." You quoted and highlighted Walker's absurd statement. Defend it or disown it, but don't try to change the subject. You "admire" Obama, good for you. You think he has a lot of "achievements." Again, good for you. Do you think I would have objected to that, or even bothered to respond at all? Of course not.

The real questions are do feel priveleged to belong to the "same species" as him, or don't you? Do you think there is anything mystically great about what he "carries in his being, or don't you?" And do you think he should be compared to King and Mandela, or don't you?

I sure as hell don't.


by freemansfarm on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Embarrasing, absurd, and scary (none / 0)

yes, yes, yes.
i'll leave the well-written responses to you!!
by jentwisl on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:32:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you think freemansfarm... (none / 0)

...has well-written responses, that is one of the worst self-indictments I have read.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're touchy tonight (none / 0)

As someone who regulary dishes out insults, you sure can't take them

I suppose the last paragraph did contain a question somewhere. Do I really think Obama is up there with MLK?

Not yet. But he's close. I went to a conference with journalists from all over the world at the US embassy on Thursday (Europe, Middle East, Pakistan, Japan) - they were all talking about Obama.

At some level, at this stage, it's just about his visuals and name. He's tall and striking. His first name is Jewish, his second Arabic, his third the name of a Japanese city.  These are superficial things. But that was a lot of Kennedy's early appeal

But when it comes to his writing, and the way he speaks, I think you're completely blink not to see the comparison with MLK. Alice Walker knew Martin Luther King, and is in a much better position than you to make a comparison.

So I think I'll go with her judgement rather than yours at the moment, especially since you seem to me to be, every time you write, to be an opinionated pretentious squirt.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Resort to insult because have no argument (2.00 / 1)

I haven't "insulted" you even once, yet your response is full of insults.

So, journalitst are "talking" about Obama? How does that make him like King in any way? Has he gone to jail for his beliefs? Has he risked his life for his beliefs? Does he even have any beliefs of the kind that made King special? King, Gandhi, Mandela, these were moral leaders. Not politicians running for elective office.

As for the way Obama writes and speaks, duh, he is consciously imitating King. Big surprise that he sounds like him. But, a big mouth doesn't make a big man. Obama talks the talk, as did King. But King walked the walk too, and got a brick, and a bullet, upside his head for his troubles. What has Obama gotten, some criticism from his rival for political office?


by freemansfarm on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You insult my intelligence (none / 0)

Just reading you lowers my IQ to room temperature.

You object to Alice Walker's comparisons. I'll take her opinion over yours. And I said he wasn't yet MLK.  God I have to repeat myself that it's like an ever decreasing circle of self reference.

You don't like Obama. I get that. Alice Walker does. So do Casey and Richardson. Some foreign journalists think he is a historic figure.

Where does all your bile come from? And I'm still waiting for you to say Obama's campaign is racist again. You said it was misogynist up thread.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ok. How about a full sentence!! (none / 0)

...with a change of candidate...

"That they can believe that millions of Americans -black,  white, yellow, red and brown, (men and women) - choose (Clinton) over (Obama) only because (s)he is a (wo)man, and (white), feels tragic to me."

Yes, that seems  "a deep sadness to me that many of my (fellow democratic) friends cannot see (her)."
(ok, that was a subclause...but the first was a full sentence!!)


by jentwisl on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:18:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think I prefer Alice Walker's version (none / 0)

What's your point?

Perhaps you're trying to say that it's tragic so many people don't get how good Hillary is?

Hmmm. Just don't buy it. As a speaker, as a thinker, as an organiser, as a campaigner, she seems miles behind Obama to me.

But that's just me. And not really the topic of this conversation. Unless of course you're saying I'm blinded to her talents by my sexism.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Perhaps you're trying to say ... (none / 0)

that it's tragic so many people don't get how good Hillary is?"

yes. i am.


by jentwisl on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fine (none / 0)

Thanks for clarifying. I accept you feel this way. Fair enough. But I'd refer you to my recent other reply to freemansfarm to get my sense of what other people around me think.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 05:37:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Misogyny Myth? (2.00 / 1)

Dislike the title but completely agree with your text.


Saxby Chambliss: Asshat
by mikeinsf on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:31:42 PM EST

Re: The Misogyny Myth? (2.00 / 1)

You're the second person to say that, so will change the title

Thanks


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 04:46:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As Dave Barry would say... (2.00 / 0)

"Obama and the Misogynists," hey that's a great name for a band!

Well, maybe not, but reading this thread I needed a little humor (very little) to cheer myself up. I think my estimate of humanity just went down a percent.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:43:25 PM EST

Yes I'm sorry Travis Stark (none / 0)

I hope you can see that I was actually trying to start a discussion which would take us beyond the flame wars and 'mine's better than yours' and onward to some kind of consensus round a single candidate.

How naive I was.

But Obama and Misogynists - what would they play?

On second thoughts, better not even go there with the humo(u)r


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice try. Actually quite in keeping (none / 0)

with Sen. Obama's campaign of trying to have honest intellectual discussions on tough issues. You wouldn't go into an (I'm self censoring myself. Fill in your own group.) meeting to talk seriously about racism, and you don't come her to have an serious discussion of sexism.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 06:53:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Funnily enough though... (none / 0)

...the responses which I assume (from name) are from women have been fairly reasonable. The tortuous circularity has mainly come from a male poster. Go figure. Maybe it's a double reverse bluff by chauvinist freepers. I have no clue.


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 07:02:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Funnily enough though... (2.00 / 0)

You are so right.  I have tried over and over to explain what I see as the difference between the candidates that led me to Obama but instead I (female) get called names.

I wrote a diary about the difficulty of telling legitimate Clinton supporters from trolls here.  


That One is the Right One for 2008.
by GFORD on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 08:03:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll go read that diary (2.00 / 1)

And I must say, you've always posted reasonable comments. Pro Obama, but never wildly anti Hillary. I could never guess your identity, and never tried. I just liked your arguments. Maybe the era of identity politics is finally over, and we can connect through persuasion and reason, rather than accidents of genetics.

Now let's go and root out those freeper trolls


Now Loose on the Moose
by brit on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 09:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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